{"id":26503,"date":"2007-08-09T01:01:01","date_gmt":"2011-05-19T05:05:38","guid":{"rendered":""},"modified":"2011-05-19T05:05:38","modified_gmt":"2011-05-19T05:05:38","slug":"gravel_spartans_were_fabulous2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/admin.rushlimbaugh.com\/daily\/2007\/08\/09\/gravel_spartans_were_fabulous2\/","title":{"rendered":"Gravel: Spartans Were Fabulous"},"content":{"rendered":"
\n

RUSH: You have to hear this audio. It is presidential candidate Mike Gravel from Alaska. He was up at a gay pride event in New Hampshire recently and a reporter says to him, ‘Senator Gravel, every election, it\u2019s always the gay issue that comes up, it seems. You know, first it was Clinton, don\u2019t ask, don\u2019t tell. They used that against him. Now it\u2019s the gay marriage thing. What do you think about all that?\u2019<\/p>\n

GRAVEL: Do you know something? Clinton was dead wrong, dead wrong on that issue. It\u2019s ridiculous. He was trying to be mousey and in the middle. When Clinton got to be President, well, the first he\u2019s doing is standing there on two legs waffling back and forth, oh, don\u2019t tell us you\u2019re gay. What are you talking about? If you had any knowledge of history, ancient history, in Sparta they encouraged homosexuality because they fight for the people they love. And if it\u2019s your partner and you love them, you\u2019re prepared to die for them, and that\u2019s the same ethic you see in the military today. It\u2019s not the country. It\u2019s my partner. Go see the movies on war, and it\u2019s always the person next to me who is in my foxhole with me. Well, I got to tell you, extend that a little further and you\u2019ll see why the Spartans trained their people to be homosexuals, because they\u2019re better fighters.<\/p>\n

RUSH: (Laughing) They trained them to be. Victor Davis Hanson<\/a>, where are you on this? He\u2019s a noted Greek scholar. The Spartans, of all of the things they did, we learn now they trained people to be homosexual. How do you train somebody to be homosexual? How do you train them? And then, nobody\u2019s fighting for their country. They\u2019re fighting for the guy they love in the foxhole (Laughing) that\u2019s sitting in there with them. Mike Gravel, one of the bottom tier candidates of the Democratic presidential primary.<\/p>\n

BREAK TRANSCRIPT<\/p>\n

RUSH: Here is Nick. Nick in Monroe County, North Carolina. You are next on the EIB network. Hello.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Mega dittos from Tar Heel State.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Thank you, sir. (laughter)<\/p>\n

CALLER: It\u2019s a nice, hot, balmy 103 degrees out there. So, we are definitely —<\/p>\n

RUSH: I know. With heat index it\u2019s probably 110. <\/p>\n

CALLER: Uh, I think it was supposed to be about 112 today.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Well, that\u2019s even better! Even better!<\/p>\n

CALLER: Yeah. Well, I just wanted to make a comment. I heard earlier you played a clip of Senator Gravel talking about Spartans promoting homosexuality.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Yes. I\u2019ll tell you what. That\u2019s been an hour and a half ago. Let\u2019s play that again. Grab sound bite #1, so everybody in the audience will have heard this and will know what Nick here from the Tar Heel State is talking about. <\/p>\n

GRAVEL: Do you know something? Clinton was dead wrong, dead wrong on that issue. It\u2019s ridiculous. He was trying to be mousey and in the middle. When Clinton got to be president, well, the first he\u2019s doing is standing there on two legs waffling back and forth, oh, don\u2019t tell us you\u2019re gay. What are you talking about? If you had any knowledge of history, ancient history, in Sparta they encouraged homosexuality because they fight for the people they love. And if it\u2019s your partner and you love them, you\u2019re prepared to die for them, and that\u2019s the same ethic you see in the military today. It\u2019s not the country. It\u2019s my partner. Go see the movies on war, and it\u2019s always the person next to me who is in my foxhole with me. Well, I got to tell you, extend that a little further and you\u2019ll see why the Spartans trained their people to be homosexuals, because they\u2019re better fighters.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Okay, Nick. You want to weigh in on this training of homosexuals. <\/p>\n

CALLER: Well, here\u2019s the thing, Rush. Uh, I\u2019m a first-generation Greek-American. It has been reported and proven that homosexuality was pretty common back in the ancient world, but what Senator Gravel fails to mention is that actually the Athenians and even later on the Romans, really promoted homosexuality.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Oh, I know. The Spartans and Greeks had nothing on the Romans in this world in this area. <\/p>\n

CALLER: Yeah. Well, that\u2019s my take on it. Second of all, if the Spartans were promoting homosexuality, they would not have been the first to step up to the Persian empire when Xerxes was trying to invade Greece. So, after he fails miserably at his next debate, his next Democrat presidential candidate debate, he can come and debate with me, and we can talk a little Greek history. <\/p>\n

RUSH: Wait, wait, wait, wait. What did you just say? If the Spartans were promoting homosexuality they would have not been the first to step up to the Persians? What do you mean by that?<\/p>\n

What I mean by this is that Spartans, if anything, criticized everyone else in Greece especially the Athenians for their rampant promotion of homosexuality, okay? They were very much family-oriented, had traditional family values as we conservatives know them today. <\/p>\n

RUSH: So you\u2019re saying Gravel is wrong, he\u2019s getting them confused with the Athenians?<\/p>\n

CALLER: Pretty much. Pretty much, I\u2019m saying he is wrong. Spartans did not promote. There might have been small cases of, you know, homosexuality within the military ranks. But if that were the case, instead of them going to fight the Persians they would be in the barracks having orgies. (laughter).<\/p>\n

RUSH: (stifling laughter)<\/p>\n

CALLER: Do you understand what I\u2019m saying, Rush?<\/p>\n

RUSH: Well, yes I think I got it.<\/p>\n

CALLER: The Romans, if anything if you look at a lot of the modern day Roman movies, you know, especially the movie Gladiator there was obviously hits of a promotion of homosexuality. <\/p>\n

RUSH: Look it. Well, well, he didn\u2019t say promotion. Well, he said promotion and the training of it. I don\u2019t want to get into that. Look, I am not a Greek scholar. I\u2019m going to consult Victor Davis Hanson<\/a> on this, because he is. He is an expert on all of this. But I do know something about the Spartans outside of sexual orientation. What does the term Spartan mean today? If you live in ‘Spartan surroundings,\u2019 what are they? It means you don\u2019t have much. It means you don\u2019t need much. You don\u2019t need stuff. You have the bare essentials and that\u2019s it. That\u2019s what Spartan means because that is where they lived. Sparta is where they live. That\u2019s what it has come to mean. These people, from the moment young men were born, were bred to be warriors and fighters. That was their entire focus in life. There has not been a society like them since. If a Spartan boy was born and didn\u2019t show the proclivities, it wasn\u2019t pretty. The women were there to basically be the cooks and the incubators for this army. They bred an army. Spartans bred armies. That\u2019s what it was. That\u2019s what is so phenomenal about the Battle of Thermopylae with the 300. How did 300 do what they did against the massive Persian army? It is because that\u2019s how they were raised. If Gravel… If you want to talk about Sparta, I don\u2019t know about this homosexuality business and all that, but the one thing I do know is you have to be honest and say the Spartans were trained and raised for one purpose: to KICK ASS. It didn\u2019t matter where and against who, that is what they were raised to do. Now, if along the way they had orgies in the barracks, who knows? Victor Davis Hanson will know. I\u2019m going to get to the bottom of this, because it\u2019s one of the most ridiculous things I\u2019ve ever heard asserted that Gravel said. They ‘trained them\u2019 in homosexuality because you love the guy in the foxhole; you\u2019ll do anything to save his life. It ‘wasn\u2019t about country.\u2019 That I do know is not true when it comes to the Spartans, and I know it\u2019s not true of the U.S. military. They are out there fighting for the country. This is patently ridiculous what he is saying about this, and the same thing with the Spartans. The Spartans were raised to defend Sparta, pure and simple. It\u2019s a lot more detailed than that. They were, in the annuals of human civilization, pretty rare the kind of people they were. <\/p>\n

BREAK TRANSCRIPT<\/p>\n

RUSH: Hey, folks, just for the fun of it here, let\u2019s put Senator Gravel\u2019s theory here into real world practice. Senator Gravel\u2019s theory is that the Spartans, if you go back and look at real military history you\u2019ll find that the Spartans trained their soldiers to be homosexuals because you go to war and if you put the person you love in a foxhole next to you, your focus becomes making sure that person stays okay, doesn\u2019t die, doesn\u2019t get hurt. You are fighting for country. You are fighting for love. He says they ‘trained them\u2019 to be gay. Let\u2019s take the orientation out of it. If the reason you go to war with somebody next to you in a foxhole because you are in love with them, and the reason that you are doing what you are doing is to save them, then why haven\u2019t we all figured out the brilliance of this and put husbands and wives together in the foxholes, side by side, in the tanks, in the two pilot jets? Why aren\u2019t husbands and wives out there doing this? (interruption) I don\u2019t care if the reason is because they are already at war with themselves. That\u2019s not the point. If you are at war with your wife or vice-versa and all of a sudden you both get called up, you\u2019ll suspend that war. All right? You\u2019ll suspend it. <\/p>\n

So why don\u2019t we do this? Why don\u2019t we put husband and wives together? Well, this is the reason why we should not have women in the military, precisely because it is going to screw everything up. When women were introduced in various combat roles and so forth, look at all of the affairs that were taking place. It was a distraction. You know, sex became a distraction. So Gravel is full of it. Furthermore, I would ask Senator Gravel, ‘Senator Gravel, where is Sparta today, and where is the Roman Empire today?\u2019 (laughing) How does this guy make these stupid comments and remain a serious candidate. I guess he\u2019s not a serious candidate, but he\u2019s on those debates. He\u2019s up there on stage. I don\u2019t know how you ‘train\u2019 somebody to be homosexual. We\u2019ve been told time and time again that you\u2019ve been born this way. If you could be ‘trained\u2019 to be a homosexual then Mike Gravel might be on to something that nobody else knows here, because if that can happen, then you could also be trained not to be — and we can\u2019t have that! But thank God for the guy. Anyway, that bite comes from a gay rights rally in New Hampshire this year. I found it on YouTube. I don\u2019t think that it\u2019s found its way into the Drive-By Media and I don\u2019t think that it will, but we put it out there. <\/p>\n

RUSH: Here\u2019s Tricia in Rangely Colorado. Welcome to the EIB Network.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Hi! How are you?<\/p>\n

RUSH: Fine. Very good.<\/p>\n

CALLER: It\u2019s really good to talk to you. I\u2019m nervous.<\/p>\n

RUSH: You\u2019re nervous? I would like to hear you when you are relaxed?<\/p>\n

CALLER: I am nervous.<\/p>\n

RUSH: You don\u2019t sound nervous at all, vivacious, effervescent and energetic.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Well, thank you. Next to my father, you are probably the smartest man I know of. But, I\u2019m so glad you made the point about being born homosexual and how he said you could ‘train\u2019 somebody to be homosexual. It just, shocked me because I\u2019ve all been told by many liberals that you are born this way.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Right.<\/p>\n

CALLER: It just —<\/p>\n

RUSH: I\u2019ve heard the same thing.<\/p>\n

CALLER: It\u2019s just amazing to me.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Well, look, clearly, the guy is an order of French fries short of a Happy Meal&reg;.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Well, obviously.<\/p>\n

RUSH: The elevator is not going all the way to the top. <\/p>\n

CALLER: He shouldn\u2019t allowed to talk.<\/p>\n

RUSH: No, no, no, no! We want these guys talking!<\/p>\n

CALLER: (Giggles.)<\/p>\n

RUSH: We want them to tell us who they are.<\/p>\n

CALLER: He is doing himself more damage.<\/p>\n

RUSH: He was talking to a reporter for a little gay TV network or publication or something.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Right.<\/p>\n

RUSH: He may be pandering, who knows?<\/p>\n

CALLER: (Giggles.) Well, the way it came across, I\u2019m imagining the gays are asking him not to help them, because it doesn\u2019t look good for him to say that.<\/p>\n

RUSH: They may not have heard about it. They may not have even known about this until I let the proverbial cat out of the bag and got to the bottom of this.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Well, I\u2019m sure that\u2019s true on a lot of issues.<\/p>\n

RUSH: On a lot of issues? Absolutely right. Trisha, thanks for calling much I appreciate your patience for holding on, too.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Thanks so much for taking my call. Have a good day!<\/p>\n

RUSH: You, too.<\/p>\n

BREAK TRANSCRIPT<\/p>\n

RUSH: Speaking of Mike Gravel and his assertion that the Spartans ‘trained\u2019 people in homosexuality to make them great warriors, there is a Democrat forum tonight in front of a totally gay TV audience. It is the LOGO Network. The LOGO Network is ‘available in about 27 million homes,\u2019 and the story I have it on here says, ‘The Democrats will appear sequentially at 15-minute intervals during the two-hour forum, never sharing the stage with one another.\u2019 This is actually very good, because each Democrat candidate — I assume Gravel will be there, too — gets 15 minutes alone with the audience, so that the gay audience there can size them up. Now, this will be an excellent chance for the Democrats. (laughter) Gravel has set the stage. It\u2019s time to call for all-gay army, an all-gay military based on Mike Gravel\u2019s understanding of history and his teaching us all of how the greatest warriors, or some of the greatest warriors in the ancient world did it: homosexual lovers in the foxhole. This, I think, has potential. I don\u2019t get the LOGO Network, I don\u2019t think. Maybe it is on DirecTV. (interruption) It is on DirecTV? Whoa! I had plans tonight, but…<\/p>\n

BREAK TRANSCRIPT<\/p>\n

RUSH: Kip, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, welcome to the EIB network. Hello.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Hello, Rush. Major dittos. The discussion regarding Sparta and the promotion of homosexuality, I\u2019ve been sitting here trying to find it in a copy of John Keegan\u2019s history of warfare. I know somewhere in this book he goes into this. It has been about 15 years since I read it. I\u2019m going from memory. I do recall that there was apparently one article that he could find that tried to promote this argument that the Spartans did this. And as I believe, if I recall correctly, Keegan debunked that article and also called into question the motives behind the authors.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Well, yeah. That\u2019s the thing that these — Abraham Lincoln was gay.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Okay. I get that.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Same kind of stuff. Look it, it doesn\u2019t get much to get the Drive-By Media to print something. You get an approved liberal group or even a fake liberal group with approved looking logo on the fax machine and put the release out and they\u2019ll run it.<\/p>\n

CALLER: All I wanted to say was Keegan debunked this at least 15 years ago. And I think that he liberally quotes Hanson in his book, too.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Yeah, I\u2019ll bet. Well, I don\u2019t have a way of getting hold of Dr. Hanson even as we speak. But I\u2019m going to try to do that. I\u2019ve never heard this before. I\u2019ve done a little reading and educating myself on the Spartans long before the movie ‘300\u2019 came out. I was fascinated when I first heard about that society and culture that they had structured for themselves. I never heard of a thing such as what Mike Gravel was out there saying. But, I don\u2019t know for sure, that\u2019s why I have to rely on a noted scholar, an expert in this field such as Dr. Hanson. Thanks for the call. Out there, Kip<\/p>\n

BREAK TRANSCRIPT<\/p>\n

RUSH: Detroit, Michigan. This is Harriet. You are next. Hello.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Hi.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Hi.<\/p>\n

CALLER: The comment that I have is that you missed the point that the volunteer, we have a volunteer Army now, therefore the people who do join, join because it is love of country and love of the family to keep them safe.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Wait, wait. What point did I miss?<\/p>\n

CALLER: Well, you are talking about loving the person in the foxhole with you.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Ah, Senator Gravel said that.<\/p>\n

CALLER: No, I mean, that\u2019s the point you have been talking about. And I\u2019m saying you don\u2019t have to. You don\u2019t have to send husband and wives together. Because, it is because of the family at home, because people love their country so much that they are willing to go and protect us.<\/p>\n

RUSH: No, no, no. I understand all of that. You don\u2019t think I was being critical of our fighting forces, do you?<\/p>\n

CALLER: No, no. I just think that was a point that you missed making.<\/p>\n

RUSH: No, no, I was making a larger point within a different context. Mike Gravel said the Spartans were not fighting for their country or city. They were fighting because they loved the man next to them.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Right. And, and the servicemen do have great respect for the men that they serve with.<\/p>\n

RUSH: It is a Buddy system. We all know that exists in the military.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Right.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Men can bond without becoming gay.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Absolutely.<\/p>\n

RUSH: This is something these clowns are totally missing in all of this. My only point is, hey, if that is what made Spartans great warriors, then let\u2019s put men and women, husbands and wives in foxholes. We are just trying to illustrate the, how should I say, the futility of his argument.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Right. No I understand that. But I just thought maybe, you know, your listeners, because a lot of people, especially on the other side, that happen to listen to you, too, they often forget we have a volunteer army. You know, they say, ‘Well, let President Bush\u2019s kids go or someone else go.\u2019<\/p>\n

RUSH: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

CALLER: They don\u2019t realize they are going for a reason.<\/p>\n

RUSH: I agree with you totally Harriet. They love their country and protecting their families. That is how they, those who join have made the decision to do so. We are in total agreement on this. It is just that you don\u2019t know it or not aware of it, which symbolizes countless years of problems that I have had. <\/p>\n

BREAK TRANSCRIPT<\/p>\n

RUSH: Vienna, Virginia, next. This is Kevin. Hello, sir.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Hello, Rush. This is Kevin. I\u2019m a retired Special Forces sergeant major, and I wanted to comment on the senator talking the Spartan fighters.<\/p>\n

RUSH: You are a retired Special Forces sergeant major?<\/p>\n

CALLER: Yes, sir, I am.<\/p>\n

RUSH: I\u2019ve been to one of the places people like you train, and I\u2019m in awe.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Why, I thank you, sir. I appreciate everything you do, and I believe you met with my Seventh Group sergeant major back then. I\u2019ve heard the story. Sergeant Major Ivan Ivanov.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Sergeant Major Ivanov! Yeah, I haven\u2019t told that story in a while. Did you know him?<\/p>\n

CALLER: Yes, sir. He was my group sergeant major many years ago.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Well, I\u2019ll have to tell that story again, because it\u2019s hilarious.<\/p>\n

CALLER: (laughter) <\/p>\n

RUSH: (laughter) It\u2019s hilarious! Anyway, I know that is not what you called about.<\/p>\n

CALLER: No, sir. I wanted to talk about that senator talking about the Spartans training with homosexuality for war. The Spartans also had another tradition. I don\u2019t know how true that one that the senator that quoted was, but —<\/p>\n

RUSH: Well, I don\u2019t know either. But I do know this, Kevin. Whatever I want to know, anything about history, I consult Mike Gravel.<\/p>\n

CALLER: That\u2019s true. <\/p>\n

RUSH: Yeah.<\/p>\n

CALLER: That\u2019s very true.<\/p>\n

RUSH: (laughter) What, what else were they known for?<\/p>\n

CALLER: Well, the tradition was, the warrior, the Spartan warrior when he would leave home to go fight and go off to battle, the mother would give the shield to the son and basically say, ‘Come home with your shield or come home on it.\u2019 What she means by ‘come home on it,\u2019 means coming dead. They would carry them back on the shield. That tells me that the Spartan warrior was also fighting for country and love of family and things like that, and I believe that the senator is getting the definition of love wrong, too. He\u2019s distorting it, or twisting it, because there are many different word, and many different definitions for many different words. If you take Spanish, they have caliente<\/emphasize> and calor<\/emphasize>. Both mean hot, one for heat, one for spicy. We in English, we have one word for hot and it covers both. In Greek — I don\u2019t speak Greek, but — they have many different verbs, like four different verbs for love. One for like amore, for love, like amorous. You are in love with your wife. They have love, another word for love, meaning love and respect for God or country. Or another one for brother love, love for brothers or other men, the respect you have for other fighters, and he\u2019s misusing the wrong verb for love when he is describing this.<\/p>\n

RUSH: I don\u2019t know if he\u2019s misusing it or just doesn\u2019t know. I would opt for the latter.<\/p>\n

CALLER: Yeah, that\u2019s probably true. He\u2019s twisting for own purposes.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Well, you are absolutely right about different languages. This is a funny story. This is back in the \u201980s, and I was working in Sacramento, and one of the things the radio station did was have hosts, like me, sponsor trips to various places in the world, taking audience members who would pay for it and the travel agency would advertise it. It did one to Italy and I did one to Hong Kong, and the one in Italy, before I went, I said, ‘I got to go to the Hotel Hassler, because the Hotel Hassler is always on Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous.\u2019 <\/p>\n

CALLER: (Chuckles)<\/p>\n

RUSH So I wanted to see what the big deal was. They had this rooftop restaurant, and my brother was on the trip with his wife and a bunch of friends. We got up there, and the waiter starts serving everybody, and my brother, instead of saying grazie<\/emphasize>, would say gratsate<\/emphasize> (ph) — and these waiters would just start laughing left and right, giggling amongst themselves, and it went on for the whole meal. As they kept laughing, my brother would keep saying gratsate<\/emphasize>. Whenever they filled the water, whenever they brought something out for the table: gratsate<\/emphasize>, and we said, ‘What does this mean?\u2019 He said, ‘I don\u2019t know. I just made it up.\u2019 So we finally asked the waiters on the way out what was so funny about it. This is what they told us: sometimes that can mean really sincere thanks from one man to another, just like you were saying there are different ways in the Greek language to express love and so forth. Now I don\u2019t know if that is true, but that\u2019s what these waiters told us. So they thought when they started giggling amongst themselves (laughing), that my brother was sending them some sort of signal when he was messing around with the word grazie<\/emphasize>! <\/p>\n

CALLER: (Laughing.)<\/p>\n

RUSH: He had no clue what it was.<\/p>\n

CALLER: That\u2019s great.<\/p>\n

RUSH: I appreciate your call. You\u2019re retired Special Forces. What are you doing now?<\/p>\n

CALLER: I own my own business sir. I\u2019m a consultant for the government. I changed. When I retired from the military, I got into computers. This is pre-9\/11. So I went from commander to computer geek.<\/p>\n

RUSH: Well, you\u2019ve had a wide and varied career then. Well, I hope you are consulting the government to get smaller. Thanks much. Great call. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

RUSH: You have to hear this audio. It is presidential candidate Mike Gravel from Alaska. He was up at a gay pride event in New Hampshire recently and a reporter says to him, ‘Senator Gravel, every election, it\u2019s always the gay issue that comes up, it seems. You know, first it was Clinton, don\u2019t ask, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":25,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_et_pb_use_builder":"","_et_pb_old_content":"","_et_gb_content_width":"","ngg_post_thumbnail":0},"categories":[],"tags":[],"yoast_head":"\nGravel: Spartans Were Fabulous - The Rush Limbaugh Show<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.rushlimbaugh.com\/daily\/2007\/08\/09\/gravel_spartans_were_fabulous2\/\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:title\" content=\"Gravel: Spartans Were Fabulous - The Rush Limbaugh Show\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:description\" content=\"RUSH: You have to hear this audio. It is presidential candidate Mike Gravel from Alaska. He was up at a gay pride event in New Hampshire recently and a reporter says to him, ‘Senator Gravel, every election, it\u2019s always the gay issue that comes up, it seems. 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